Electric Vehicles

[dobre_shunka]

Now look at the government subsidy of oil and gas. Heck one of the biggest complaints against Biden is that he wont let oil and gas drilling resume on federal land.

Fact Sheet | Fossil Fuel Subsidies: A Closer Look at Tax Breaks and Societal Costs | White Papers | EESI

20 billion direct a year to oil, gas, and coal. And you want to complain about 5.

If you want to take the angle that EV shouldnt get any support than you should feel even more strongly about the larger support pill and gas get.

But instead of facing that reality the topic will just slide to the next subject and keep doing so until we end up back here.

You said what's the beef with electric cars becuase it's all market driven and I pointed out it's not market driven. Never mentioned petroleum industry in my response.

So now deflect instead of "facing that reality" by acknowledging it's not market driven.

 

[825VOL]

How many people actually need a truck? Especially for a daily driver? You hauling your boat to work everyday?

I get having a truck, but most people dont have a use to justify needing a truck.

Even hog with his business you really think he is hauling equipment in his truck? Rolling out to jobsites on the side of Everest for a daily debrief? Or does he use it to get to the office 75% of the time?

People should not have to "justify" owning a truck or anything else. It seems that you and others think they should only drive their trucks under certain circumstances. That means they have to buy an EV for the other times at a cost of 60-100K. That is ridiculous.

 

[Grand Vol]

Dodge (and I’m sure others are) are working on improving HEV. Hybrid electric vehicles make 100x more sense than pure electric.

Until EV stations become as commonplace as gas stations on the interstate, this is certainly true.

I'm kinda wondering why Musk and others aren't trying to partner with places like Loves, Pilot and other nationwide stop-n-go's to put in either battery swaps or rapid charging stations.

Or why one of the chains hasn't reached out to Tesla to do so.

 

[McDad]

Is that on their charger or any charging station?

Good question. I don't know.

The cynic in me assumes their charger in ideal circumstances and at best time of day for power grid.

 

[McDad]

There is no freaking way in hell these batteries will last half of that life in the southwest deserts. Normal car batteries, for instance, last 2.5-3.5 years max in the Phoenix metro area.

I don't know what to tell you. Independent sources are making that claim. Not the car or battery manufacturer.

 

[McDad]

I laughed. Batteries are consumed by charge/discharge cycles.

That makes sense to me. Does 15 years seem out of reach under "normal' usage?

 

[hog88]

Now look at the government subsidy of oil and gas. Heck one of the biggest complaints against Biden is that he wont let oil and gas drilling resume on federal land.

Fact Sheet | Fossil Fuel Subsidies: A Closer Look at Tax Breaks and Societal Costs | White Papers | EESI

20 billion direct a year to oil, gas, and coal. And you want to complain about 5.

If you want to take the angle that EV shouldnt get any support than you should feel even more strongly about the larger support pill and gas get.

But instead of facing that reality the topic will just slide to the next subject and keep doing so until we end up back here.

So are we going to eliminate deductions on R&D for every industry because this is essentially what this is.

Intangible Drilling Costs Deduction (26 U.S. Code § 263. Active). This provision allows companies to deduct a majority of the costs incurred from drilling new wells domestically. In its analysis of President Trump’s Fiscal Year 2017 Budget Proposal, the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) estimated that eliminating tax breaks for intangible drilling costs would generate $1.59 billion in revenue in 2017, or $13 billion in the next ten years.

I could go on picking apart your link but it appears you have gotten emotional about the subject.

 

[GroverCleveland]

Now look at the government subsidy of oil and gas. Heck one of the biggest complaints against Biden is that he wont let oil and gas drilling resume on federal land.

Fact Sheet | Fossil Fuel Subsidies: A Closer Look at Tax Breaks and Societal Costs | White Papers | EESI

20 billion direct a year to oil, gas, and coal. And you want to complain about 5.

If you want to take the angle that EV shouldnt get any support than you should feel even more strongly about the larger support pill and gas get.

But instead of facing that reality the topic will just slide to the next subject and keep doing so until we end up back here.

The article in the link is almost complete BS apparently written by anti-fossil fuel nuts in hopes that no one actually reads it. Did you actually read it? Do you understand the difference between a subsidy (money given directly to a target group and not expected to be paid back) and tax breaks/treatments? There is a substantial difference and anyone who calls a tax break a subsidy is a pretty much either an ignoramus or, worse, a liar.

While there were some references to some direct subsidies for research listed, those did not seem to amount to much, although I admittedly did not take a calculator to the numbers so I could be mistaken.

 

[AM64]

For long distance trips, hauling, and towing we need to be pursuing Natural Gas vehicles. Something you've been advocating for years.

One thing to be aware of is the difference in energy content which affects power output. For example, this is the power rating for a three fuel generator. Note the drop in output from gas to propane and then from propane to natural gas

• Gasoline: 10,000 starting watts and 8000 running watts
• Propane: 9000 starting watts and 7200 running watts
• Natural gas: 8750 starting watts and 7000 running watts

 

[hog88]

You arent arguing any point I made. I said the infrastructure wasnt there for EV just like it wasnt there for oil and gas 100 years ago. What do you think the natives left the pipes and refineries for the white man to find and use?

Did the government force the buggy manufactures to start making automobiles? Limit peoples choices between buggies and cars?

 

[Vol423]

I don't know what to tell you. Independent sources are making that claim. Not the car or battery manufacturer.

What happens with normal car batteries is when my car battery, which has a 5-year warranty dies in 2.5 years, they prorate the replacement so you get the new battery for 1/2 price. My last battery lasted just over 2 years. Of course, they always die in the summer on days when it's 110-115 degrees here.

 

[LouderVol]

I don't anyone is arguing against EV's, but the infrastructure has to keep pace with the technology, and so far it isn't. It's like let's switch over to EV's, and we'll figure out the rest later.

I fully support yanking all government involvement with EV as soon as it happens with oil and gas.

Right now the biggest moves have all been driven by the open market. Even this 5 billion going to the charging stations wont come anywhere close to what the government promises. It will be more slush, to go with a few charging stations placed in some very public places to get the attention the politicians want. Meanwhile the market will continue to chug along making changes over time as its supported.

 

[hog88]

How many people actually need a truck? Especially for a daily driver? You hauling your boat to work everyday?

I get having a truck, but most people dont have a use to justify needing a truck.

Even hog with his business you really think he is hauling equipment in his truck? Rolling out to jobsites on the side of Everest for a daily debrief? Or does he use it to get to the office 75% of the time?

Lutheresque at it's best.

How many people need a 30 round magazine????????

 

[AM64]

If the true reason for the push to eliminate gas/diesel vehicles was reducing pollution they would be pushing for expanding the NG distribution system and NG vehicles.

According to some articles I've read recently several places are banning NG in new construction basically with the intent of killing off NG for home use. And that decision is a major blunder, and you might guess it's places like NY and CA pushing it.

 

[McDad]

One thing to be aware of is the difference in energy content which affects power output. For example, this is the power rating for a three fuel generator. Note the drop in output from gas to propane and then from propane to natural gas

• Gasoline: 10,000 starting watts and 8000 running watts
• Propane: 9000 starting watts and 7200 running watts
• Natural gas: 8750 starting watts and 7000 running watts

The fuel in the gas phase is less efficient?

 

[McDad]

According to some articles I've read recently several places are banning NG in new construction basically with the intent of killing off NG for home use.

Was there a reason why?

 

[McDad]

What happens with normal car batteries is when my car battery, which has a 5-year warranty dies in 2.5 years, they prorate the replacement so you get the new battery for 1/2 price. My last battery lasted just over 2 years. Of course, they always die in the summer on days when it's 110-115 degrees here.

Understood. But it may be erroneous to compare lead acid to rechargeable (lithium?) batteries.

 

[hog88]

According to some articles I've read recently several places are banning NG in new construction basically with the intent of killing off NG for home use. And that decision is a major blunder, and you might guess it's places like NY and CA pushing it.

Pure idiocy

 

[UT_VOLS13]

According to some articles I've read recently several places are banning NG in new construction basically with the intent of killing off NG for home use. And that decision is a major blunder, and you might guess it's places like NY and CA pushing it.

San Francisco bans natural gas use in new construction projects - Institute for Energy Economics & Financial Analysis

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/15/new-york-city-is-banning-natural-gas-hookups-for-new-buildings.html

 

[McDad]

San Francisco bans natural gas use in new construction projects - Institute for Energy Economics & Financial Analysis

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/15/new-york-city-is-banning-natural-gas-hookups-for-new-buildings.html

From article:
The ordinance is meant to reduce the city’s greenhouse gas emissions, but also acknowledges the risk of natural gas explosions and research that links burning the fuel indoors with adverse health outcomes.

Morons in charge of San Fran.

 

[hog88]

From article:
The ordinance is meant to reduce the city’s greenhouse gas emissions, but also acknowledges the risk of natural gas explosions and research that links burning the fuel indoors with adverse health outcomes.

Morons in charge of San Fran.

I think NYC is doing the same thing.

 

[GreyWolf1129]

Lutheresque at it's best.

How many people need a 30 round magazine????????

I do. I’m a terrible shot. The 30 round magazine puts me on equal footing with the guy shooting a muzzle loader.

 

[dobre_shunka]

I fully support yanking all government involvement with EV as soon as it happens with oil and gas.

Right now the biggest moves have all been driven by the open market. Even this 5 billion going to the charging stations wont come anywhere close to what the government promises. It will be more slush, to go with a few charging stations placed in some very public places to get the attention the politicians want. Meanwhile the market will continue to chug along making changes over time as its supported.

If you buy a new gasoline or diesel vehicle, you will also be subsidizing someone else's electric car purchase .

'Currently, electric vehicles are much more expensive than vehicles with internal combustion engines. As the CEO of Stellantis explained late last year, “What has been decided is to impose on the automotive industry electrification that brings 50% additional costs against a conventional vehicle.” He went on: “There is no way we can transfer 50% of additional costs to the final consumer because most parts of the middle class will not be able to pay.” In December 2021, the average new vehicle cost over $47,000 and the average used car
cost nearly $30,000. To put this in perspective, the average individual income in the United
States is about $63,000. '

https://energycommerce.house.gov/si...ments/Witness Testimony_Pyle_ENG_2022.3.8.pdf

 

[VolStrom]

What happens with normal car batteries is when my car battery, which has a 5-year warranty dies in 2.5 years, they prorate the replacement so you get the new battery for 1/2 price. My last battery lasted just over 2 years. Of course, they always die in the summer on days when it's 110-115 degrees here.

I've been looking to buy a new battery, apparently they have abandoned the prorated warranty in favor of the 1,2,3 year full replacement.

 

[AM64]

Was there a reason why?

Post #119 has a couple of articles on the bans. I've also read some articles claiming we are basically poisoning ourselves with NG cookstoves, etc. Almost like it's a concerted effort to discourage or outright ban NG for home use, and it looks to be the environmental gang out to do the axing. They can't seem to understand that there are a lot of losses and inefficiencies in using NG (seems to be the fuel of choice right now) to produce and transfer electric power that would replace NG heating and cooking. I don't think they are ready for the ire they will face from people who cook with gas and have to transition to electric ranges, or people who like the heat from a NG furnace.