Is Judaism a Race

#101
#101
MontyPython said:
So let's not let facts get in the way of this debate.

The Nuremberg Laws enacted in 1935 in Nazi Germany stated the following definition of a "Jew":

"While both the Interior Ministry and the Nazi Party agreed that persons with three or more Jewish grandparents would be classed as being Jewish and those with only one (Mischlinge of the second degree) would not, a debate arose as to the status of persons with two Jewish grandparents (Mischlinge of the first degree).[50] The Nazi Party, especially its more radical elements, wanted the laws to apply to Mischlinge of both the first and second degree.[51] For this reason Hitler continued to stall, and did not make a decision until early November 1935. His final ruling was that persons with three Jewish grandparents were classed as Jewish; those with two Jewish grandparents would be considered Jewish only if they practiced the faith or had a Jewish spouse."

Thus, someone having a Jewish religious faith DID, in fact, have direct bearing on whether or not that person was considered a "Jew" in Nazi Germany if that person had 2 or less "Jewish" grandparents.

So, it's not all "race" which is a complete misnomer in the first place.

Also, let's not forget Hitler was a homicidal maniac. Relying on his definitions of race or, well, anything, is like the blind leading the blind.
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Ummm, you just validated his point that the Nazis considered Jews to be another race.
 
#103
#103
Part of Whoopi's problems is that she views race as pigmentation. It's a very recent view of race and all part of the brown vs white divide.

She also ignores that Hitler defined the Jews as a race and that motivated his actions.

So it's a two-fer; she's myopic on the issue of race and lumps races together based on skin tone AND she's trying to create a "the Holocaust isn't as bad as White Supremacy" theme by saying this is just bad actions between white people.
 
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#105
#105
MontyPython said:
Ummm, no, I proved exactly the opposite. Read, man!
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No ya didn't, the Nuremberg race laws sound pretty close to our "1 drop" laws. They viewed Jews as a separate race and you posted part of the evidence.
 
#106
#106
MontyPython said:
So let's not let facts get in the way of this debate.

The Nuremberg Laws enacted in 1935 in Nazi Germany stated the following definition of a "Jew":

"While both the Interior Ministry and the Nazi Party agreed that persons with three or more Jewish grandparents would be classed as being Jewish and those with only one (Mischlinge of the second degree) would not, a debate arose as to the status of persons with two Jewish grandparents (Mischlinge of the first degree).[50] The Nazi Party, especially its more radical elements, wanted the laws to apply to Mischlinge of both the first and second degree.[51] For this reason Hitler continued to stall, and did not make a decision until early November 1935. His final ruling was that persons with three Jewish grandparents were classed as Jewish; those with two Jewish grandparents would be considered Jewish only if they practiced the faith or had a Jewish spouse."

Thus, someone having a Jewish religious faith DID, in fact, have direct bearing on whether or not that person was considered a "Jew" in Nazi Germany if that person had 2 or less "Jewish" grandparents.

So, it's not all "race" which is a complete misnomer in the first place.

Also, let's not forget Hitler was a homicidal maniac. Relying on his definitions of race or, well, anything, is like the blind leading the blind.
Click to expand...

Did you miss the direct quote from Hitler I posted earlier? You should really just give up and admit you're wrong here. Even your own source admits it's racial which you initially denied.

You're also ignoring other German laws that applied to anyone with Jewish parent or grandparent such as the Berufsbeamtengesetz.
 
#107
#107
Sandman 423 said:
Did you watch the video I posted?
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Yes. Thanks for posting it.

@ 1:34 of the clip, the host states:

“But here’s the point that needs to be made. Umm. The Holocaust – the Shoah – was not about race, it wasn’t about skin color, umm, race was irrelevant.”
 
#108
#108
Vol8188 said:
Did you miss the direct quote from Hitler I posted earlier? You should really just give up and admit you're wrong here. Even your own source admits it's racial which you initially denied.

You're also ignoring other German laws that applied to anyone with Jewish parent or grandparent such as the Berufsbeamtengesetz.
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What Hitler *said* and what Hitler *did* were NOT one in the same. Regardless, the Nuremberg laws were very clear: If you had 3 Jewish grandparents or had 2 Jewish grandparents AND YOU PRACTICED JUDAISM, you were considered a "Jew".
 
#109
#109
MontyPython said:
Heh. My pipeweed-imbibing buddy Merriam disagrees, oh Gandolf Greyhame...

Jew

\ ˈjü \
Definition of Jew

1: a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people
2: one whose religion is Judaism
3a: a member of the tribe of Judah
b: ISRAELITE
4: a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century b.c. to the first century a.d.

Further...

"A person who converts to Judaism becomes a Jew in every sense of the word, and is just as Jewish as someone born into Judaism. There is a good precedent for this; Ruth, the great-great grandmother of King David, was a convert. Note: Not all Jewish conversions are accepted by all Jews." Link and Link

View attachment 432138
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While it is well reported that I too enjoy pipeweed (though since Longbottom leaf has been harder to get of late so I prefer the convenient shape of a cigar in more recent times) - it is clear that is best left to wizards since your friend mind seems a bit addled by it :D

Just because it may be a colloquialism to consider a convert to Judaism a Jew does not make them one anymore than speaking Swahili makes me an ethnic Bantu.
 
#110
#110
MontyPython said:
What Hitler *said* and what Hitler *did* were NOT one in the same. Regardless, the Nuremberg laws were very clear: If you had 3 Jewish grandparents or had 2 Jewish grandparents AND YOU PRACTICED JUDAISM, you were considered a "Jew".
Click to expand...

I’ve never seen someone so committed to being wrong. The laws you’re citing for your non racial component, obviously contain a racial component.

But since you don’t think it was racial, answer this. Why would they allow a half Jewish person to marry a German but not allow two half Jewish people to marry each other (the fact the law even recognized someone as half Jewish in itself proves a racial component)?
 
#111
#111
MontyPython said:
Heh. My pipeweed-imbibing buddy Merriam disagrees, oh Gandolf Greyhame...

Jew

\ ˈjü \
Definition of Jew

1: a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people
2: one whose religion is Judaism
3a: a member of the tribe of Judah
b: ISRAELITE
4: a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century b.c. to the first century a.d.

Further...

"A person who converts to Judaism becomes a Jew in every sense of the word, and is just as Jewish as someone born into Judaism. There is a good precedent for this; Ruth, the great-great grandmother of King David, was a convert. Note: Not all Jewish conversions are accepted by all Jews." Link and Link

View attachment 432138
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Interesting. What’s their top definition? I guess that one doesn’t count.

Also what’s up with the weird racist joke?
 
#112
#112
Gandalf said:
While it is well reported that I too enjoy pipeweed (though since Longbottom leaf has been harder to get of late so I prefer the convenient shape of a cigar in more recent times) - it is clear that is best left to wizards since your friend mind seems a bit addled by it :D

Just because it may be a colloquialism to consider a convert to Judaism a Jew does not make them one anymore than speaking Swahili makes me an ethnic Bantu.
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tenor (9).gif

Heh. True. Begs the question, though: Would Hitler have wanted Sammy Davis Jr. dead - his actual race (skin color) aside - and other Jewish converts?
 
#113
#113
Vol8188 said:
Interesting. What’s their top definition? I guess that one doesn’t count.

Also what’s up with the weird racist joke?
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Just a cut and paste. Sammy Davis Jr. was Jewish. Converted to Jewish more specifically.
 
#114
#114
There has been plenty of discussion in the past 24 hours on “What” happened.

What did she say? What did she mean?
What is Jewish/Judaism/Israeli?

Has there been any mention of the “Why”?

Why did she go off on this narrative? Why is the Holocaust something she needed to weigh in on and diminish in some way? Why?

Is she somehow threatened by the Holocaust?
 
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#117
#117
MontyPython said:
View attachment 432156

Heh. True. Begs the question, though: Would Hitler have wanted Sammy Davis Jr. dead - his actual race (skin color) aside - and other Jewish converts?
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I suspect he would have considered them sympathizers and so would have wanted them out of the way at least but to flip it around - would Hitler have welcomed a Jew into the German fold, had they decided to start reading the Prose Edda and begin worshiping Germanic pagan gods? I think not.
 
#118
#118
hog88 said:
It doesn’t matter what I call people in the context of this discussion. Hitler and the nazis believed Jews were a race and not simply a religion people that converted from Judaism to Christianity even prior to the race laws were still considered Jewish by the Nazis so the Holocaust was about race.

IMO Judaism is not a race anymore than being a Baptist is.
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In the absolute sense I would agree that Judaism is not a race, but it's also not just a religion.

It's an entire culture that reshapes your way of life beyond the realm of the synagogue. Hitler didnt just go after this one faith. He went after plenty of different groups, and it makes it tricky on how you define what he did beyond just genocide.

If you use the lazy American definition of race, then no the Holocaust was not about race.
if you use the racist version of racism of where racism only exists for POC, then no it wasnt about race.
If you use Hitlers definition, it was about race.
If you use some modern countrys definition of race it's a protected class, see sweden. So I would think there it would be about race.

It also depends on how you define the Holocaust. If you only mean the jewish victims of Hitler, or do you include all the other groups he targeted for being different, and not aligning with his world view.

FWIW I don't think Whoopi should have been punished. But it's not my network.
 
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#121
#121
MontyPython said:
What Hitler *said* and what Hitler *did* were NOT one in the same. Regardless, the Nuremberg laws were very clear: If you had 3 Jewish grandparents or had 2 Jewish grandparents AND YOU PRACTICED JUDAISM, you were considered a "Jew".
Click to expand...
But if you had three jewish grandparents and did NOT practice Judaism, you were considered a jew. I would bet the same goes for 4.

And if you are being generational with your definitions you clearly are considering something beyond the practice of the religion itself. Otherwise it wouldnt matter what your grandparents were.
 
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#122
#122
LouderVol said:
But if you had three jewish grandparents and did NOT practice Judaism, you were considered a jew. I would bet the same goes for 4.

And if you are being generational with your definitions you clearly are considering something beyond the practice of the religion itself. Otherwise it wouldnt matter what your grandparents were.
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The other thing he omits is that they wouldn’t allow half or quarter Jews (1 or 2 grandparents) to marry each other because the Germans wanted to breed the Jew out of them
 
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#125
#125
85SugarVol said:
There has been plenty of discussion in the past 24 hours on “What” happened.

What did she say? What did she mean?
What is Jewish/Judaism/Israeli?

Has there been any mention of the “Why”?

Why did she go off on this narrative? Why is the Holocaust something she needed to weigh in on and diminish in some way? Why?

Is she somehow threatened by the Holocaust?
Click to expand...
I heard that it originally started as discussion about the school system in Tennessee that removed the book on the Holocaust from their curriculum.
 
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