Minneapolis to allow Muslim prayer call broadcasts at all hours

[sonofUT62]

Damn. And I thought the non-denoms were there just to hold hands and sing Kumbaya.

I think it was more “Im a lunatic and no demonination will have me” kind of non denom. Not a Jon Crist non denom where the church has an actual coffee shop and a name like Hillsong.

 

[sonofUT62]

Oh, shaddup unless willing to support his ranting about GOP tyrants while ignoring the mote in his own eye. There's a clear fascist trend in American leftist leaders that is not present on the right.

Nahhh I’m good. At least I think I am. I have to admit that I struggled to read your post but I’ve had very little coffee.

 

[DinkinFlicka]

Absolutely couldn't careless what happens in blue cities, as a matter of fact I actually pull for them to fail

Ah, the old "I love America... but only about half of it" brand of faux patriotism.

You love to see it.

 

[NCFisher]

Nahhh I’m good. At least I think I am. I have to admit that I struggled to read your post but I’ve had very little coffee.

I accept your answer.
It's not 'whataboutism' to ask how you explain this while alluding, without evidence, that it exists in or there is counterpart in your political opposition.

 

[NorthDallas40]

 

[sonofUT62]

Absolutely couldn't careless what happens in blue cities, as a matter of fact I actually pull for them to fail

Sometimes when they do, the idiot white liberals that ruined them, pack up and move to your town. It’s a dangerous game.

 

[OrangeBoro]

Sometimes when they do, the idiot white liberals that ruined them, pack up and move to your town. It’s a dangerous game.

That's always the scary part

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Total fallacy. New England States had an established State church well after ratification. This notion that the US wasnt founded as a Christian Nation isn't supported by fact.

It is supported by a Treaty ratified by Congress during the Adams administration, but keep rewriting history.

 

[hUTch2002]

I think it was more “Im a lunatic and no demonination will have me” kind of non denom. Not a Jon Crist non denom where the church has an actual coffee shop and a name like Hillsong.

Excellent! Now we will have denominations of non-denominations, which are really just another denomination anyway. I like your descriptions so hopefully they stick.

 

[NCFisher]

You’ve still yet to acknowledge any of my quotes. Why would I begin countering yours when you won’t counter mine?

In isolation, I think you've made some accurate statements but choose a poor vehicle (Muslims call to prayer).

Even putting the fundamentalists aside - the Medina Muslims as one Muslim author terms them - far the largest group of Muslims globally are the Mecca Muslims, and of most concern. While generally not supportive of forcible coercion, they are devout and unwilling to denounce extremism, even supportive of it broadly or selectively, and unwilling to acknowledge the inherent violent conquest and conversion aspects of Islam, which has not had a New Testament-like evolution from Abrahamic/Mosaic law to Christianity. This is reflected in repeated surveys of Muslims worldwide, including those living in Western countries, demonstrating some level of approval of fundie violence. The last group she refers to as reformist or 'modifying Muslims', some apostates but mainly devouts who do favor such a reformation.

Contrast the emergence of Christianity from Mosaic law (God's son the transformative agent) and Mohammed - just a violent, child-sexing guy unlikely to begat a deity, and you see the problem; the reformers would be human - not from Allah - and therefore infidels and apostates. Just not seeing the path forward here.

I consider Islam fundamentally incompatible with the West, and certainly the U.S., but that's the problem with a constitutional republic; you can't pre-emptively weed out the Marxists or Muslims who may be a problem to get to the ones that are. At some point you probably have to fight a bloody war and start over. I agree with you W. Europe is fked in this regard. There's no large country more diverse and tolerant than the U.S., but we're told 'white supremacist society' and 'immigrants made this country'...well no, a constitution protecting all rights by protecting the individual's made this country; everyone just flocked to that premise. And if multi-culturalism hasn't worked here - and we're told it doesn't - it's a lie that won't work anywhere.

Further, I think your notion of homogeneity are correct; whatever the levels of melanin or ethnic background, if people do not share and are not loyal to the tenets of the republic, you will not last as a nation. "But weez a nation of immigrants!!"...yeah, that was fine when they were overwhelmingly Euro-descent with similar ideas, culture, and religious beliefs and had been engaging in commerce & relations for centuries with each other and worked out most differences. From the perspective of how women are treated and deriving law from religion, as it relates to the West, Islam/Muslims might as well be from Mars.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

“Moral and religious people,” Muslims are not. My lord did die for everyone. Muslims behead women who step a little out of line, anyone even somewhat gay, and infidels. But you want to come at christianity for being intolerant. You people are ****ing unbelievable.

As Michael Knowles once said, “the only thing that bonds the left is opposition to Christianity.”

Far better men than me have screamed this from the rooftops but few have listened : Islam is simply NOT compatible with Western culture/countries.

It isn't. Period. I have read the Quran in its entirety. It is slam full of their "god" telling them to lie to, attack, and kill the "infidels"...which to them is ANYONE not already a muslim. Over and over, sura after sura (verse) it tells followers in no uncertain terms to lie, conspire, and kill. The exact OPPOSITE of what the God of Isaac and Jacob teaches in the Bible...which is to love your neighbors, even your enemies.

To put it plainly:

The only Muslim that can coexist in a western society is an INSINCERE muslim. A muslim that is willing to defy the blunt instructions given them over and over about lying, subverting, and killing nearly everyone around them in the West. There are some great other commands too...like its OK to beat your wife anytime you want as long as one uses bare hands OR a rod no wider than his thumb. The Quran teaches the exact opposite of what Jesus taught, despite it containing most of the Old Testament. It is all the other crap that is so messed up.

And btw..NO the god in the Quran is not the same God from the Bible. The 2 could not be any more different, and tell their worshippers to do the exact OPPOSITE in their lives. The God of Isaac and Jacob is unmutable, unchanging. For those hung up on the way liberal public schools describe all 3 religions as "Abrahamic"...that is a genealogical statement. Abraham had 3 sons of 3 different religions. That in no way means that they all worshipped the same God...I have a brother that is an atheist myself. I worship God, he worships at the alter of Self like most do. We still came from the same Dad. Just like Isaac, Jacob, and illegitimate Ishmael all came from old Abe. People seem to really struggle with this concept for some reason...

So there are no morals without Christianity?

Malum prohibitum vs malum in se?

No desire to get into this quagmire of a debate, but where does an atheist get their sense of right and wrong if not from the Bible/ 10 commandments?

Absent the 10C...right and wrong is purely subjective right? Therefore varies wildly from 1 person to the next. So what gives anyone ANY authority to tell another that HE is wrong or immoral? Subjective morality is THE slippery slope. Absent any real moral code, life is a free for all...and the only question then is who has the monopoly on lethal force/violence to impose their will upon others. Anyone elses opinion pretty much worthless in a moral vacuum. Might makes right...right? Of course it does. The ultimate slippery slope.

Edit: Fisher posted 2mins before me while i was typing this and said, right on cue:

"Islam is NOT compatible with western culture or the US.."

Yep.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

Far better men than me have screamed this from the rooftops but few have listened : Islam is simply NOT compatible with Western culture/countries.

It isn't. Period. I have read the Quran in its entirety. It is slam full of their "god" telling them to lie to, attack, and kill the "infidels"...which to them is ANYONE not already a muslim. Over and over, sura after sura (verse) it tells followers in no uncertain terms to lie, conspire, and kill. The exact OPPOSITE of what the God of Isaac and Jacob teaches in the Bible...which is to love your neighbors, even your enemies.

To put it plainly:

The only Muslim that can coexist in a western society is an INSINCERE muslim. A muslim that is willing to defy the blunt instructions given them over and over about lying, subverting, and killing nearly everyone around them in the West. There are some great other commands too...like its OK to beat your wife anytime you want as long as one uses bare hands OR a rod no wider than his thumb. The Quran teaches the exact opposite of what Jesus taught, despite it containing most of the Old Testament. It is all the other crap that is so messed up.

And btw..NO the god in the Quran is not the same God from the Bible. The 2 could not be any more different, and tell their worshippers to do the exact OPPOSITE in their lives. The God of Isaac and Jacob is unmutable, unchanging. For those hung up on the way liberal public schools describe all 3 religions as "Abrahamic"...that is a genealogical statement. Abraham had 3 sons of 3 different religions. That in no way means that they all worshipped the same God...I have a brother that is an atheist myself. I worship God, he worships at the alter of Self like most do. We still came from the same Dad. Just like Isaac, Jacob, and illegitimate Ishmael all came from old Abe. People seem to really struggle with this concept for some reason...




Malum prohibitum vs malum in se?

No desire to get into this quagmire of a debate, but where does an atheist get their sense of right and wrong if not from the Bible/ 10 commandments?

Absent the 10C...right and wrong is purely subjective right? Therefore varies wildly from 1 person to the next. So what gives anyone ANY authority to tell another that HE is wrong or immoral? Subjective morality is THE slippery slope. Absent any real moral code, life is a free for all...and the only question then is who has the monopoly on lethal force/violence to impose their will upon others. Anyone elses opinion pretty much worthless in a moral vacuum. Might makes right...right? Of course it does. The ultimate slippery slope.

Edit: Fisher posted 2mins before me while i was typing this and said, right on cue:

"Islam is NOT compatible with western culture or the US.."

Yep.

No offense, but the 10 commandments came long after the concept of right and wrong and morals.

 

[utvolpj]

Far better men than me have screamed this from the rooftops but few have listened : Islam is simply NOT compatible with Western culture/countries.

It isn't. Period. I have read the Quran in its entirety. It is slam full of their "god" telling them to lie to, attack, and kill the "infidels"...which to them is ANYONE not already a muslim. Over and over, sura after sura (verse) it tells followers in no uncertain terms to lie, conspire, and kill. The exact OPPOSITE of what the God of Isaac and Jacob teaches in the Bible...which is to love your neighbors, even your enemies.

To put it plainly:

The only Muslim that can coexist in a western society is an INSINCERE muslim. A muslim that is willing to defy the blunt instructions given them over and over about lying, subverting, and killing nearly everyone around them in the West. There are some great other commands too...like its OK to beat your wife anytime you want as long as one uses bare hands OR a rod no wider than his thumb. The Quran teaches the exact opposite of what Jesus taught, despite it containing most of the Old Testament. It is all the other crap that is so messed up.

And btw..NO the god in the Quran is not the same God from the Bible. The 2 could not be any more different, and tell their worshippers to do the exact OPPOSITE in their lives. The God of Isaac and Jacob is unmutable, unchanging. For those hung up on the way liberal public schools describe all 3 religions as "Abrahamic"...that is a genealogical statement. Abraham had 3 sons of 3 different religions. That in no way means that they all worshipped the same God...I have a brother that is an atheist myself. I worship God, he worships at the alter of Self like most do. We still came from the same Dad. Just like Isaac, Jacob, and illegitimate Ishmael all came from old Abe. People seem to really struggle with this concept for some reason...




Malum prohibitum vs malum in se?

No desire to get into this quagmire of a debate, but where does an atheist get their sense of right and wrong if not from the Bible/ 10 commandments?

Absent the 10C...right and wrong is purely subjective right? Therefore varies wildly from 1 person to the next. So what gives anyone ANY authority to tell another that HE is wrong or immoral? Subjective morality is THE slippery slope. Absent any real moral code, life is a free for all...and the only question then is who has the monopoly on lethal force/violence to impose their will upon others. Anyone elses opinion pretty much worthless in a moral vacuum. Might makes right...right? Of course it does. The ultimate slippery slope.

Edit: Fisher posted 2mins before me while i was typing this and said, right on cue:

"Islam is NOT compatible with western culture or the US.."

Yep.

There was no morality before the bible? Even with the 10 right and wrong is still pretty subjective as the bible has been used to justify some heinous acts. They weren't the first to state not to kill or steal. Pretty sure those rules existed

 

[Zues1]

So can I blast Stryper or Black Sabbath at volume 11 in the early morning hours.

 

[NCFisher]

I honestly don’t see the problem with this. Live and let live. It would be different if they were forcing people to worship.

Agree in general, but let's not kid ourselves that Islam isn't a different animal.

If anyone is interested here's an article and an excerpt:
"Western governments have tried to engage with “moderate Muslims”: imams and community leaders who denounce terrorist attacks and claim to represent the true, peaceful Islam. But this has not amounted to meaningful ideological engagement. These so-called moderate representatives of Islam insist that violence has nothing to do with Islam and as a result the intolerant and violent aspects of the Quran and the Hadith are never acknowledged or rejected. There is never any discussion about change within Islam to bring the morally outdated parts of the religion in line with modernity or genuine tolerance for those who believe differently."
Islam Is a Religion of Violence

 

[ClearwaterVol]

No offense, but the 10 commandments came long after the concept of right and wrong and morals.

The Bible is nothing more than a book of fables that presents lessons on morality from the perspective of man.

 

[AM64]

There’s nothing unAmerican about it. It fits well with our value of freedom of religion. Or should we have state religion like in the good old days before 1776?

Except a government body just made a ruling that gives privilege and rights to one specific religion. That's pretty much contrary to our country's founding principles.

 

[EasternVol]

Far better men than me have screamed this from the rooftops but few have listened : Islam is simply NOT compatible with Western culture/countries.

It isn't. Period. I have read the Quran in its entirety. It is slam full of their "god" telling them to lie to, attack, and kill the "infidels"...which to them is ANYONE not already a muslim. Over and over, sura after sura (verse) it tells followers in no uncertain terms to lie, conspire, and kill. The exact OPPOSITE of what the God of Isaac and Jacob teaches in the Bible...which is to love your neighbors, even your enemies.

To put it plainly:

The only Muslim that can coexist in a western society is an INSINCERE muslim. A muslim that is willing to defy the blunt instructions given them over and over about lying, subverting, and killing nearly everyone around them in the West. There are some great other commands too...like its OK to beat your wife anytime you want as long as one uses bare hands OR a rod no wider than his thumb. The Quran teaches the exact opposite of what Jesus taught, despite it containing most of the Old Testament. It is all the other crap that is so messed up.

And btw..NO the god in the Quran is not the same God from the Bible. The 2 could not be any more different, and tell their worshippers to do the exact OPPOSITE in their lives. The God of Isaac and Jacob is unmutable, unchanging. For those hung up on the way liberal public schools describe all 3 religions as "Abrahamic"...that is a genealogical statement. Abraham had 3 sons of 3 different religions. That in no way means that they all worshipped the same God...I have a brother that is an atheist myself. I worship God, he worships at the alter of Self like most do. We still came from the same Dad. Just like Isaac, Jacob, and illegitimate Ishmael all came from old Abe. People seem to really struggle with this concept for some reason...




Malum prohibitum vs malum in se?

No desire to get into this quagmire of a debate, but where does an atheist get their sense of right and wrong if not from the Bible/ 10 commandments?

Absent the 10C...right and wrong is purely subjective right? Therefore varies wildly from 1 person to the next. So what gives anyone ANY authority to tell another that HE is wrong or immoral? Subjective morality is THE slippery slope. Absent any real moral code, life is a free for all...and the only question then is who has the monopoly on lethal force/violence to impose their will upon others. Anyone elses opinion pretty much worthless in a moral vacuum. Might makes right...right? Of course it does. The ultimate slippery slope.

Edit: Fisher posted 2mins before me while i was typing this and said, right on cue:

"Islam is NOT compatible with western culture or the US.."

Yep.

It's interesting that your take is more in line with ISIL's than with the vast majority of adherents who study the scripture and derivative writings in depth and in context. I've lived and worked for many years with a lot of sincerely devout Muslims, well educated in their religion, who believe nothing at all like what you get from your reading. Comparing takes, I'll go with those who have studied it for months or years and really know their subject matter. A taxi driver told me once that Islam summarized is 'be good to people and sleep only with your spouse', and that's pretty much what I see in their behavior. I see the same too in a lot of well studied Christians' behavior, at least those who aren't into prosperity gospel and the like.
How do you view the differences between the Old and New Testaments in the attitudes ascribed to God?
As for western culture, assuming you mean rule of law, representative government, rational thought, etc., there's nothing innate in Christianity which makes it more compatible than other religion that comes to mind. There's text in the Bible too that doesn't mesh so well with those ideals.

 

[EasternVol]

Except a government body just made a ruling that gives privilege and rights to one specific religion. That's pretty much contrary to our country's founding principles.

I don't know about that . I suppose churches there can ring their bells and Buddhist temples can sound their drums, etc. They all should certainly have that right, as long as they're not creating a nuisance.

 

[EasternVol]

Agree in general, but let's not kid ourselves that Islam isn't a different animal.

If anyone is interested here's an article and an excerpt:
"Western governments have tried to engage with “moderate Muslims”: imams and community leaders who denounce terrorist attacks and claim to represent the true, peaceful Islam. But this has not amounted to meaningful ideological engagement. These so-called moderate representatives of Islam insist that violence has nothing to do with Islam and as a result the intolerant and violent aspects of the Quran and the Hadith are never acknowledged or rejected. There is never any discussion about change within Islam to bring the morally outdated parts of the religion in line with modernity or genuine tolerance for those who believe differently."
Islam Is a Religion of Violence

That's one take. Another from the same site:
Islam Is a Religion of Peace

 

[AM64]

I honestly don’t see the problem with this. Live and let live. It would be different if they were forcing people to worship.

Minneapolis should either have abolished "quiet hours" for all or not have granted an exception to any individual or group.

 

[volgr]

It is supported by a Treaty ratified by Congress during the Adams administration, but keep rewriting history.

Good job. You took your one and only reference to support your line of reasoning, out of context. It is YOU who is rewriting history.

 

[AM64]

I don't know about that . I suppose churches there can ring their bells and Buddhist temples can sound their drums, etc. They all should certainly have that right, as long as they're not creating a nuisance.

From the article it sounds like this is exclusive to one entity and that all others have to continue to obey the city noise ordinance. That would mean that Buddhists don't get to use their drums at 3AM, Baptists can't ring bells at 3AM, and @Zeus1 can't blast Stryper or Black Sabbath at 3AM. That reeks of granting favored status to one group to the exclusion of others.

"The Minneapolis City Council unanimously agreed Thursday to amend the city's noise ordinance, which had prevented dawn and late evening calls at certain times of the year due to noise restrictions"

 

[EasternVol]

From the article it sounds like this is exclusive to one entity and that all others have to continue to obey the city noise ordinance. That would mean that Buddhists don't get to use their drums at 3AM, Baptists can't ring bells at 3AM, and @Zeus1 can't blast Stryper or Black Sabbath at 3AM. That reeks of granting favored status to one group to the exclusion of others.

"The Minneapolis City Council unanimously agreed Thursday to amend the city's noise ordinance, which had prevented dawn and late evening calls at certain times of the year due to noise restrictions"

Well blasting Stryper at any hour should be banned. AC/DC's good though.
Good point. If churches or temples have a religious basis for bells or drums or other sound at odd hours they should be allowed the same as mosques. I hope there are volume limits on the calls all year (it shouldn't be a nuisance to those who don't subscribe) but especially when days are longest and prayer times are very early and very late.

 

[NEO]

The Bible is nothing more than a book of fables that presents lessons on morality from the perspective of man.

Yet goes against almost all human instinct to sleep around, drink, do drugs and live however you want.

This isn’t really the correct thread for it but the commandments are broken down into two categories: first love God, the second is love thy neighbor as much as you love yourself.

The second part is really hard and goes against self.