Okay I was a bit harsh on Dooley.....

[sjt18]

UT is sitting at #7 in the country right now. id say thats better than "average" especially for a team having the last 5 years UT has had. find another team thats been through what weve been through and tell me about thier last 2 classes.

Where they sit right now with regard to the rankings is completely irrelevant. Several other schools that recruit well like LSU, UGA, FSU, USC, OSU, Texas, and UF have many more open spots than UT does. They're likely to pass UT by NSD.

 

[BearCat204]

This is so sad. Move on people. The guy did his best and it wasn't good enough. He did a lot of good as well as bad. He jeopardized his health and put his self in the line of fire so you could sit on a computer and *****. He upgraded the facilities, started some good programs, and brought in some good talent, he wasn't able to make the most of that talent, but he did give it a go...it just wasn't good enough. That was a potent high scoring offense he fielded. We paid him for his efforts and he moved on, so should you. Just get on with your lives.

This is loaded with fallacy, but I believe the criticism that most people have for Dooley wasn't necessarily the wins or losses, it was how he treated people throughout the program and how he burned so many bridges with Tennessee high schools.

 

[Spartacavolus]

This is loaded with fallacy, but I believe the critisim that most people have for Dooley wasn't necessarily the wins or losses, it was how he treated people throughout the program and how he burned so many bridges with Tennessee high schools.

he was terrible. I wish I wouldn't have supported him as long as I did, but I've pretty much done that for all the coaches in the big 3 sports until I can't stick up for them anymore. Many were done with him much earlier than me, but I figured he was getting yr 3 so I might as well support him. And I was fired up after going to Atlanta to see them v NC state. Then Q3 UF happened and it was enough. Then it became almost hoping for losses so it would all be over.

 

[Ace]

Almost as funny as people who lack the life experience to sympathize with someone who fails like that.

Yeah... and it is tempting to wish that someone like you at some point will experience that kind of failure and public humiliation. I'm sure you'll handle it so much better and will love it when people kick you while you're down. That's such a classy thing to do, you know?

Dooley failed. The non-sense being spewed here says a lot more about the people posting it than it does Dooley.

As far as I know... he hasn't taken public shots at UT, the AD, the staff, the players, or even the fans. Has he? Seems he's showing a good bit more class than many of you.

He has not said anything because he is still being paid by the university. Both he and Hamilton were unqualified for their positions. I sympathize with people who fail, but people need to know their own limitations before they take a job.

 

[KBVol]

Dooley took as big a dump on the university as Lane Kiffin.

It was much, much bigger.

 

[ajvol01]

he was terrible. I wish I wouldn't have supported him as long as I did, but I've pretty much done that for all the coaches in the big 3 sports until I can't stick up for them anymore. Many were done with him much earlier than me, but I figured he was getting yr 3 so I might as well support him. And I was fired up after going to Atlanta to see them v NC state. Then Q3 UF happened and it was enough. Then it became almost hoping for losses so it would all be over.

Same for me...except it was 1 week later at Miss St

 

[UrbanCryer]

Where they sit right now with regard to the rankings is completely irrelevant. Several other schools that recruit well like LSU, UGA, FSU, USC, OSU, Texas, and UF have many more open spots than UT does. They're likely to pass UT by NSD.

You want to know the difference between UT and all the teams you mentioned? They are all top 25 teams and havent been through the turmoil UT has been through the last 5 years.

Once again, find a team. Any team thats been through anything even close to what weve been through and tell me about thier classes.

On your recruiting rankings. If you take out the 2* qb(that should be a 4* by all accounts), the 2* longsnapper(a big need) and the 3* punter(another big need) UT is sitting at a lot higher avg number. Should cbj recruit *s or needs?

Is he the answer? I dont know but if he leaves or gets canned UT will be in much better shape becauseof him than they were ever gonna be with dd in charge.

 

[sjt18]

You want to know the difference between UT and all the teams you mentioned? They are all top 25 teams and havent been through the turmoil UT has been through the last 5 years.

That was not and is not relevant to the discussion we're having. I simply said that the first class was admirable considering what Dooley left Jones, the second class was excellent, and the third one appears to be tracking "average" relative to the SEC according to Rivals. Someone responded by challenging that the 15 class is top 10 now. Unless something changes, it won't be on NSD. That's not a shot at Jones or saying it is bad relative to the situation or even bad regardless of the situation. The fact is it is simply unlikely that this class will be ranked as high as the last one.

On your recruiting rankings. If you take out the 2* qb(that should be a 4* by all accounts), the 2* longsnapper(a big need) and the 3* punter(another big need) UT is sitting at a lot higher avg number. Should cbj recruit *s or needs?

I accounted for the QB and if Rivals only counts 25 then the long snapper won't be counted.

Is he the answer? I dont know but if he leaves or gets canned UT will be in much better shape becauseof him than they were ever gonna be with dd in charge.

I hope you are right.... but my prediction is that if he is fired and the new HC doesn't succeed that someone here will be excusing him by saying we have to wait until he gets a chance to recruit "his" players.

However, all this non-sense may be moot in a couple of months. Jones does have a history of performing better in year 2 of implementing his system. And if so many here weren't so wrapped up in taking shots at me but were instead more interested in discussing real issues... you could argue that the team this fall including the OL and DL match BJ's model and are better developed to it by now than last year. I can't tell you why they played big on the DL last year... I can tell you that his last two starting DT's at Cincy both weighed in the 270's. The two previous years they were around 300 lbs... with the DE's going 240-260. This year looks more like that than last year did.

 

[sjt18]

He has not said anything because he is still being paid by the university. Both he and Hamilton were unqualified for their positions. I sympathize with people who fail, but people need to know their own limitations before they take a job.

You could definitely say Dooley bit off a lot more than he could chew.

 

[NashVol11]

Some people have never held a position of responsibility nor observed someone in that kind of position sinking. It produces a level of stress most of you will never know.

Stop me if you've heard this one a billion times before. Good to see sjt hasn't changed even a little bit

 

[sjt18]

Dooley was apparently open to discussions, but the UTAD wouldn't consider it for financial reasons. Dooley still had a long rope for 2012, but the clusterfrick that was the Vandy game made it impossible to keep him without losing booster $$$.

The really, really scary part is that he seemed to be safe if he had only made a bowl game. My opinion was that he needed that "signature" win or he needed to go. You were here and you know I argued for him to get his complete shot... just like I argued for Fulmer. But one he lost to USCe with no chance to beat anyone else who was relevant the decision should have been locked in. They could have even let him go at that point since he seemed to be tanking UT's recruiting class by no effort at all.

BUT... it was said at the time that he would be kept if he took a team that should have won 10 games and made a minor bowl with it.

 

[NashVol11]

And to the thread title...no. No you weren't. He was just that bad.

 

[sjt18]

Good grief! You sound like an Obama liberal who can't accept reality. Dooley was a coach who never should have been hired by UT. He had no credentials,except that his daddy was a good coach at Georgia.

No. That would be you and the others who feel personally offended that a guy failed... you know, you are "entitled" and he denied you so he must be "evil".

 

[sjt18]

So much was riding on that UK game.. Could have went to a bowl and UK was horrible....

Jones is a little different as the momentum is with him. Dooley has lost the fan base prior to that game. I see you point but Jones is pushing all of the right buttons currently, Wins have to follow..

I can go with just about anyone who includes the bold. I just have a problem with those who won't say that they expect the UT HC to be elite and WIN.

 

[UrbanCryer]

That was not and is not relevant to the discussion we're having. I simply said that the first class was admirable considering what Dooley left Jones, the second class was excellent, and the third one appears to be tracking "average" relative to the SEC according to Rivals. Someone responded by challenging that the 15 class is top 10 now. Unless something changes, it won't be on NSD. That's not a shot at Jones or saying it is bad relative to the situation or even bad regardless of the situation. The fact is it is simply unlikely that this class will be ranked as high as the last one.

I accounted for the QB and if Rivals only counts 25 then the long snapper won't be counted.

I hope you are right.... but my prediction is that if he is fired and the new HC doesn't succeed that someone here will be excusing him by saying we have to wait until he gets a chance to recruit "his" players.

However, all this non-sense may be moot in a couple of months. Jones does have a history of performing better in year 2 of implementing his system. And if so many here weren't so wrapped up in taking shots at me but were instead more interested in discussing real issues... you could argue that the team this fall including the OL and DL match BJ's model and are better developed to it by now than last year. I can't tell you why they played big on the DL last year... I can tell you that his last two starting DT's at Cincy both weighed in the 270's. The two previous years they were around 300 lbs... with the DE's going 240-260. This year looks more like that than last year did.

I hope you don't think im taking shots at you. im not. im just trying to figure out youre angle. I can have a discussion with anybody as long as they take my points into account(as you have).

im not sure if you think dd should still be here or what. I just don't understand not giving CBJ his due credit. he has done a good, if not great, job so far especially under the circumstances.

 

[sjt18]

Stop me if you've heard this one a billion times before. Good to see sjt hasn't changed even a little bit

Thanks for the compliment. You're right... of course. Adopt a standard and set of values and stick to it unless you have real proof that you should change them.

Jones should get 3 years. Dooley got 3 years. Kiffin probably would have gotten fired for ethics within 3 years. Fulmer got 3 years to turn it around after 2005.

There is nothing wrong with that.

The one thing that Dooley taught me though should please you. You don't have to withhold all criticism to "support" the team or coach. Being honest about what is plain to see won't hurt. I kept my questions about Dooley to myself and argued the "glass half full view".

Now... I praise and criticize... I speculate what might happen good and bad.

 

[NashVol11]

No. That would be you and the others who feel personally offended that a guy failed... you know, you are "entitled" and he denied you so he must be "evil".

He was a d*ck. That's really not up for debate. You can try to play dimestore psychologist and argue that he was secretly a little precious angel until being terrible at his job made him a d*ck, but facts-wise, that's what he was. Carry on.

 

[sjt18]

I hope you don't think im taking shots at you. im not. im just trying to figure out youre angle. I can have a discussion with anybody as long as they take my points into account(as you have).

im not sure if you think dd should still be here or what. I just don't understand not giving CBJ his due credit. he has done a good, if not great, job so far especially under the circumstances.

I think Jones has done a very good job recruiting and especially under the circumstances. I don't mind praising OR criticizing him. Too many here go into a tail spin at any suggestion of any flaw... Many just want everyone to have "faith" that he and his staff can coach. But they didn't show they could get it done at the SEC level last fall. They did not have a good record against teams with a winning record at Cincy. USCe was the first ranked team Jones beat though he'd played some.

None of that says he "won't" be a great coach... but it DOES prevent you from saying for sure that he will be. IT is a wait and see situation.

IMO the absolute worse thing that could happen is for UT to get a coach who is a great recruiter but not a good enough coach to turn the talent into championships... just "also rans".

Dooley got his shot. He was rightly fired... that, he deserved. I just don't think it is good to have contempt for someone just because they failed. Many here act as if Dooley failed to somehow spite them personally. It's pretty ridiculous.

 

[NashVol11]

Thanks for the compliment. You're right... of course. Adopt a standard and set of values and stick to it unless you have real proof that you should change them.

I was actually referring to the condescending bullsh*t, but yes, I know I'm right.

The one thing that Dooley taught me though should please you. You don't have to withhold all criticism to "support" the team or coach. Being honest about what is plain to see won't hurt. I kept my questions about Dooley to myself and argued the "glass half full view".

Now... I praise and criticize... I speculate what might happen good and bad.

I'm glad you realized that having your head up Dooley's ass was a bad thing. Took you long enough, but I did what I could.

 

[sjt18]

He was a d*ck. That's really not up for debate. You can try to play dimestore psychologist and argue that he was secretly a little precious angel until being terrible at his job made him a d*ck, but facts-wise, that's what he was. Carry on.

Ironic words from the Pot.

 

[ajvol01]

Sjt your refusal to acknowledge any of the positives that Butch and his staf have accomplished is the main thing that bothers me.

Dooley and Jones did not walk into the same job.

Dooley inherited a team 3 seasons removed from the SECCG and coming off of a winning season.

Jones inherited a team that had learned how to lose - 3 seasons in a row with a losing record. Zero wins against ranked teams. Broke the winning streak vs Kentucky. Dooley's teams got worse each year. 2012 was an abomination - hiring Sunseri shows how out of his depth Dooley really was - results were inexcusable based on the offensive weapons that team possessed. His teams simply knew how to quit. - they learned from him (see Mizzou 4th qtr 2012)

 

[sjt18]

I was actually referring to the condescending bullsh*t, but yes, I know I'm right.

:lolabove: Wow... you don't own a mirror, do you?

I'm glad you realized that having your head up Dooley's ass was a bad thing. Took you long enough, but I did what I could.

The literate at the time knew that wasn't true. I certainly explained it enough times for any moron to understand. I thought then that negativism would hurt recruiting and the program regardless of whether Dooley deserved criticism or not. I was wrong about that. But I never said anything more than that he should get his full shot before conclusions were drawn. I said prior to '12 that he should need to get a meaningful win to save his job. He didn't and after USCe I said he needed to be fired.

And if your head wasn't up your own... you would have understood that.

 

[NashVol11]

Ironic words from the Pot.

What's not ironic is the fact that you have no idea what ironic means.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

Just a personal observation... but it seems there's just a conformist attitude of some VN posters to jump on the bandwagon of hurdling insults toward someone - once someone else has tossed out the first stone.

It appears to me that sjt has done nothing more than shared his perspectives in a sports forum, and in most cases has attempted (whether you agree with his logic or not) to provide reason for his opinions. Others have simply responded with various personal attacks while offering little if any substance to support their posts.

If there is, in fact, any trolling going on... then it would appear to be from posters other than sjt.

Again... just a personal observation.

 

[NashVol11]

I mean, seriously, Dooley was a clear and obvious disaster from he second he was hired. Sjt is JUST NOW realizing this. Why does anyone care what he thinks about Butch Jones?