The Reason UT Can No Longer Sign Elite WRs

#101
#101
oh no according to the masses we are done, this class is doomed. I mean its still summer but its over, we suck at this recruiting thing!
 
#102
#102
bignewt said:
oh no according to the masses we are done, this class is doomed. I mean its still summer but its over, we suck at this recruiting thing!
Click to expand...

It's definitely not over. We've got some serious work to do to make sure the class doesn't finish outside the top 15. We need to pick up at least 5-6 4* caliber guys just to hold firm in the top 15.
 
#105
#105
bignewt said:
Ok man I sure hope we can cause apparently there is some cliff at #16 we don't know about!
Click to expand...

I think this staff can compete and win if they have similar or better talent than the other schools in conference. If they can't out talent them, I don't think they win. Just my current observation. Dropping off in recruiting is a concern as IMO that means losses.
 
#106
#106
bignewt said:
Hey lets stop recruiting in every other state but TN because apparently our success from Memphis to Johnson City is the only way our coaches abilities will be measured!
Click to expand...

Will you stop with that mess? It's not the only measure but when you have an epic amount of talent in your backyard and you're struggling to get a fair amount of that talent to come play for you it's a concern. If you wanna whitewash it and say it doesn't matter then go ahead, knock yourself out. But having Clemson come into Tennessee and take 3 of the top 7 players from the state is a problem. And that's just one team....who else are teams like Georgia, Alabama, Ole Miss and Auburn gonna pull? Hell, even Ohio State and Michigan have a presence here and are likely to get a top player or two.

We're still gonna have a good, solid, top 10-15 rated class IMO. But there's no doubt that locking up guys like Higgins, Rodgers and Stevens early could've made this arguably the best class in program history.
 
#107
#107
But they aren't. So you either go out and get a good class regardless of what state they reside in or cry about the TN kids wanting to leave the state like normal teens do...

You prefer to do the latter, I believe in the former.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#108
#108
KBVol said:
Will you stop with that mess? It's not the only measure but when you have an epic amount of talent in your backyard and you're struggling to get a fair amount of that talent to come play for you it's a concern. If you wanna whitewash it and say it doesn't matter then go ahead, knock yourself out. But having Clemson come into Tennessee and take 3 of the top 7 players from the state is a problem. And that's just one team....who else are teams like Georgia, Alabama, Ole Miss and Auburn gonna pull? Hell, even Ohio State and Michigan have a presence here and are likely to get a top player or two.

We're still gonna have a good, solid, top 10-15 rated class IMO. But there's no doubt that locking up guys like Higgins, Rodgers and Stevens early could've made this arguably the best class in program history.
Click to expand...

Think he was addressing the latest incarnation of Leb's assertion that we need to be Tennessee centrific in our offers and overall recruiting.
 
#109
#109
bignewt said:
But they aren't. So you either go out and get a good class regardless of what state they reside in or cry about the TN kids wanting to leave the state like normal teens do...

You prefer to do the latter, I believe in the former.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. A lot of other schools focus on that instate talent. They value it. Lots of programs build winners doing it. You'll never get them all, but saying instate or out of state doesn't matter is exactly why we see a 2017 unfolding.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people
#110
#110
CrunchingTheVolz said:
Hmmm. A lot of other schools focus on that instate talent. They value it. Lots of programs build winners doing it. You'll never get them all, but saying instate or out of state doesn't matter is exactly why we see a 2017 unfolding.
Click to expand...

And a lot don't as much. Which is how we used to build championship caliber teams. Now back then it was a necessity but there is no reason you cannot still do it.

What kind of 2017 do you see unfolding? I see an incredibly talented team coming back in 2017?!?

Also say you miss on 3 or 4 in state recruits, that is suddenly failure? Heck Georgia does that every year!
 
#111
#111
bignewt said:
And a lot don't as much. Which is how we used to build championship caliber teams. Now back then it was a necessity but there is no reason you cannot still do it.

What kind of 2017 do you see unfolding? I see an incredibly talented team coming back in 2017?!?

Also say you miss on 3 or 4 in state recruits, that is suddenly failure? Heck Georgia does that every year!
Click to expand...

If we had a Dooley situation, where our top in-state kids weren't even getting letters? Then the defeatist flak on this forum would have some justification. Even his detractors would have to admit (under oath) that the man cold brings it for kids he wants. Kyle Phillips,Barnett,Richmond...even Hurd, weren't locks...we were behind other schools at points in their recruitment. Top kids in the state. So it's not effort or lack thereof. At some point (after you've done EVERYTHING) you come to the crossroads and either keep going or go lay up and fade away. Think we know which route our coach takes.
 
#112
#112
bignewt said:
And a lot don't as much. Which is how we used to build championship caliber teams. Now back then it was a necessity but there is no reason you cannot still do it.

What kind of 2017 do you see unfolding? I see an incredibly talented team coming back in 2017?!?

Also say you miss on 3 or 4 in state recruits, that is suddenly failure? Heck Georgia does that every year!
Click to expand...

I expect 2017 on the field to take a step back from the SECE champs I expect in 2016. Lose your QB, RBs, Possibly our best player from each level of the defense has me thinking hopefully an 8-9 win type year. Similar to 2015. The problem comes in when your recruiting classes you're restocking with are 15-20 type classes and not 5-10 type classes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#113
#113
That 15-20 range would be in the 30s or lower if we followed some posters recruiting philosophies.
 
#115
#115
bignewt said:
And a lot don't as much. Which is how we used to build championship caliber teams. Now back then it was a necessity but there is no reason you cannot still do it.

What kind of 2017 do you see unfolding? I see an incredibly talented team coming back in 2017?!?

Also say you miss on 3 or 4 in state recruits, that is suddenly failure? Heck Georgia does that every year!
Click to expand...

Georgia can miss on 20 stud in state recruits and still have a great year accumulating instate talent. Kinda apples and oranges.

But the point is, it should be easier, much easier to pull talented 4 and 5 star kids from your own state than from other talent rich states. And as we see the talent base grow exponentially in Tennessee, the dynamics of how the Vols recruit should change drastically from the Fulmer years when he had to go all over creation to put together a class.

Butch did a great job getting the best players from Tennessee in 2014....did a good job last year.....but this year, thus far, not so much. And while I'm not "crying about it", it's certainly some cause for concern.

All that being said, if Butch goes and gets Holloman, Jeudy, Gaddy, Williams and another out of state stud or 2......while adding Smith and Chandler and Phillips from Tennessee, it's all pretty much a moot point. But if we only get 3 or 4 of the top 10-12 players in Tennessee this year, a great year for in-state talent, I personally think it's a problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#116
#116
butchna said:
That 15-20 range would be in the 30s or lower if we followed some posters recruiting philosophies.
Click to expand...

Maybe. The reality though is in a lot of cases the instate guy we didn't get is ranked higher than the out of state guy we take via the services. So if we're talking rankings, Maybe not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#117
#117
KBVol said:
Georgia can miss on 20 stud in state recruits and still have a great year accumulating instate talent. Kinda apples and oranges.

But the point is, it should be easier, much easier to pull talented 4 and 5 star kids from your own state than from other talent rich states. And as we see the talent base grow exponentially in Tennessee, the dynamics of how the Vols recruit should change drastically from the Fulmer years when he had to go all over creation to put together a class.

Butch did a great job getting the best players from Tennessee in 2014....did a good job last year.....but this year, thus far, not so much. And while I'm not "crying about it", it's certainly some cause for concern.

All that being said, if Butch goes and gets Holloman, Jeudy, Gaddy, Williams and another out of state stud or 2......while adding Smith and Chandler and Phillips from Tennessee, it's all pretty much a moot point. But if we only get 3 or 4 of the top 10-12 players in Tennessee this year, a great year for in-state talent, I personally think it's a problem.
Click to expand...

Ok? And this is not arguing with you, how do you resolve this "problem"? Shift in offensive philosophy and new WR coach is the popular answer, but how do we know that the philosophy doesn't change on it's own depending on the strengths of the QB running it. Emphasis on blocking by WRs might be shifted (yes, by our WR's coach) by the strengths of the NEW signalcaller...whoever that is. Not a diehard defender of Azzani but I think it's too simple to pin our loss of a hometown talent to the new shiny apple program based SIMPLY on that. Too many conjectures and unknowns from fans who don't have their careers based on the outcome ...just their passion. Butch has shown in the last two seasons that he can put pressure on his OC to change the offensive emphasis from finesse spread out to power running (prompting a jump by Bajakian) and an outright release of a trusted DC to simply upgrade. Every concern and worry we have over recruiting developments is multiplied ten-fold on that staff. They're two to four years ahead of us on EVERY lost recruit we're currently agonizing over. Difference is that they don't get to log off and get away from it. They have to keep recruiting the supposedly lost whilst keening on other options. If "problems" weren't being addressed I'd join the contingent wailing and gnashing, but from previous experience I'm confident I'll be enjoying the talent coming in on NSD. :hi:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people
#118
#118
butchna said:
Ok? And this is not arguing with you, how do you resolve this "problem"? Shift in offensive philosophy and new WR coach is the popular answer, but how do we know that the philosophy doesn't change on it's own depending on the strengths of the QB running it. Emphasis on blocking by WRs might be shifted (yes, by our WR's coach) by the strengths of the NEW signalcaller...whoever that is. Not a diehard defender of Azzani but I think it's too simple to pin our loss of a hometown talent to the new shiny apple program based SIMPLY on that. Too many conjectures and unknowns from fans who don't have their careers based on the outcome ...just their passion. Butch has shown in the last two seasons that he can put pressure on his OC to change the offensive emphasis from finesse spread out to power running (prompting a jump by Bajakian) and an outright release of a trusted DC to simply upgrade. Every concern and worry we have over recruiting developments is multiplied ten-fold on that staff. They're two to four years ahead of us on EVERY lost recruit we're currently agonizing over. Difference is that they don't get to log off and get away from it. They have to keep recruiting the supposedly lost whilst keening on other options. If "problems" weren't being addressed I'd join the contingent wailing and gnashing, but from previous experience I'm confident I'll be enjoying the talent coming in on NSD. :hi:
Click to expand...

Its us against the world I'm afraid...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#119
#119
"A lot of cases" is an awfully generic term...I'd like to see specific examples of such. We lost out on Notre Dame/Michigan legacy Alex Bars a couple of seasons ago. Landed 4 stars Jack Jones and Richmond from the same state but the best lineman from that class was 3 star VA product Chance Hall. Most likely would have ended up a 4 if not for that pesky Achilles' tendon. That's a specific example of "settling"...just worked out too well. :)
 
#121
#121
I see that tweedle dee and tweedle dum have shifted the discussion in this thread to entirely different topics. Not surprised that b1tchna took this approach, as that is his modus operandi.

This thread was started to discuss how our lack of a vertical passing attack and use of the WR position is now likely preventing us from getting the highest ranked WRs (elite). We were in on several top rated WRs last year and as the season progressed their interest shifted elsewhere. Using last year's 247 composite WR rankings, here are a few of the main misses:
#11 Kyle Davis (Auburn) - UT led early in the season
#13 Austin Mack (OSU)
#15 Benjamin Victor (OSU) - right after his visit and following announcement it was stated by a VN "insider" that we passed
#18 Donnie Corley (Mich St)
#19 Javon McKinley (ND)
#27 Freddie Swain (UF)
#32 Ahmmon Richards (Miami)
#42 Tre Nixon (Ole Miss)
#45 Diondre Overton (Clemson)
#57 Mykel Jones (Oklahoma)

Instead, we got:
#3 ATH Marquez Callaway (#104 overall)
#6 JUCO WR Jeff George (#33 JUCO overall)
#86 WR Brandon Johnson
#100 WR Corey Henderson (did not qualify)
#111 WR Latrell Williams

I'll reiterate here again -- at the risk of providing more ammunition for the sunshine trolls -- that I think these signees can do very well here at UT. I especially like Callaway and Byrd, although I still would prefer to see Byrd end up on the defensive side of the ball once we better address the lack of difference makers at WR. But this is the recruiting forum and using composite rankings is the basis of determining recruiting success prior to seeing on-the-field production. Given that I don't propose we wait until a player's soph - sr seasons before we discuss a player on VN, composite rankings are the most objective way to discuss a player.

Similar to 2016, we are struggling mightily at the moment recruiting WRs in this class. Whether I think Fant is or will become an elite WR doesn't change the fact that his composite ranking does not put him in the "elite" category right now. Obviously we missed on homegrown UT fan Tee Higgins, who is undoubtedly labeled elite. Now VN is clinging to the possibility of Jerry Jeudy - a player that up until two days ago was never discussed (although I have discussed him several times myself and stated that he was one of the best looking receivers in the Rivals 5-Star Challenge more than a month ago). Jeudy is widely expected to choose Bama and it has been said before that he has the same "handlers" as Amari Cooper and Calvin Ridley. If so, calling him a long shot would be generous. It's nice to see we're in his current top 5. He called us his leader last year before the season started, for what it's worth.

Yo, B1tchna and bigtwerp, stop shifting the discussion in my thread to the merits of in-state vs out-of-state recruiting. And for the record, I have always held the opinion that you get the best players you can irrespective of where they were born. Only Leb/Crunch is on the bandwagon that you always fill up a good portion of each recruiting class w instate players irrespective of how they are rated relative to out-of-state prospects. I doubt many agree with his opinion on that anyway, so quit hashing it out in this thread, you sunshine pumping puppets. Although, for the record, in a year where the instate talent is arguably the best its ever been in the modern recruiting era, it's a pretty damn big deal if UT misses on a majority of the top rated instate players. It's very unlikely they have an out-of-stater that is rated higher that is a realistic possibility at this time relative to OT Trey Smith, WR Tee Higgins, S JaCoby Stevens. I think we get RB Ty Chandler. Also, there is a possibility that Gibbs future is at OLB or NB, whereas Stevens is almost certainly a safety. Thus, they are not as interchangeable as VN wants to play off.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 8 people
#122
#122
So as I am apparently a sunshine troll, what am I allowed to talk about in your thread oh spewer of lists and dubiously titled thread maker?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 people
#123
#123
bignewt said:
So as I am apparently a sunshine troll, what am I allowed to talk about in your thread oh spewer of lists and dubiously titled thread maker?
Click to expand...

How about the topic at hand? How about adding something to it instead of bashing it with no points. You've not contributed a single bit of solid reasoning to the point of my thread. You've only shown you disagree (which is fine) with no fact based counter points as to why my opinion is wrong.

I agree that UT has seen solid improvement under Jones -- certainly in terms of roster talent as well as in wins. That doesn't mean that all points of contention aren't worthy of discussion. The reality (for me at least) is that we could have been much better in 2015 than we were. I think the lack of a vertical passing game and use of our WRs is a major reason why. ChavisUT made an astute point that it was no coincidence that the three lowest passing totals of our season came in 3 of our 4 losses.

But stating that something is not what it should be does not mean that you view pending doom for our program, an upcoming disappointment in the 2016 season and beyond, or even a disappointment in the overall 2017 recruiting class. Yet that is what you are trying to make this out to be. Well, its not.

So I ask you again, if you don't like my thread and the points I make, which I base on facts (2015 WR stats are facts, as it turns out), then why don't you offer counter points based on facts for your own opinion? It appears easier for you to use tactics of deflection and misdirection in support of your argument against my stated opinion. I suspect that's bc you cannot counter my argument that an inept passing game as it relates to the WR position has begun to impact recruiting the position. I'll add that Josh Malone and Preston Williams would not be reasonable retorts (as class idiot b1tchna countered), seeing as how Malone was part of the 2014 class and P Willy committed in September 2013.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 people
#124
#124
junder13 said:
How about the topic at hand? How about adding something to it instead of bashing it with no points. You've not contributed a single bit of solid reasoning to the point of my thread. You've only shown you disagree (which is fine) with no fact based counter points as to why my opinion is wrong.

I agree that UT has seen solid improvement under Jones -- certainly in terms of roster talent as well as in wins. That doesn't mean that all points of contention aren't worthy of discussion. The reality (for me at least) is that we could have been much better in 2015 than we were. I think the lack of a vertical passing game and use of our WRs is a major reason why. ChavisUT made an astute point that it was no coincidence that the three lowest passing totals of our season came in 3 of our 4 losses.

But stating that something is not what it should be does not mean that you view pending doom for our program, an upcoming disappointment in the 2016 season and beyond, or even a disappointment in the overall 2017 recruiting class. Yet that is what you are trying to make this out to be. Well, its not.

So I ask you again, if you don't like my thread and the points I make, which I base on facts (2015 WR stats are facts, as it turns out), then why don't you offer counter points based on facts for your own opinion? It appears easier for you to use tactics of deflection and misdirection in support of your argument against my stated opinion. I suspect that's bc you cannot counter my argument that an inept passing game as it relates to the WR position has begun to impact recruiting the position. I'll add that Josh Malone and Preston Williams would not be reasonable retorts (as class idiot b1tchna countered), seeing as how Malone was part of the 2014 class and P Willy committed in September 2013.
Click to expand...

:lolabove: So those kids that commit as 8th graders don't count as wins in their EVENTUAL class? :lol: Pick and choose pick and choose. The cutoff point for classes that apply to your silly lil rant conveniently seem to fall JUST outside your rant window. :lol: And plunker? If God couldn't make you witty, your silly exclamation point attempt sure as hell won't. :lol:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#125
#125
butchna said:
Can't fight the witty elite who can destroy your points by simply defiling your screen name with an exclamation point. :mf_surrender: Oh...and throwing a wall of irrelevant words at a post and skewing them as facts. :lol: You're wound too tight lil spazz. People disagree all the time...no need to take it personal...but don't stop on my account. :w00t:
Click to expand...

You have littered this thread with a total of 21 posts and counting and you have made only one counter argument relevant to the topic at hand: that the signing of Josh Malone and Preston Williams refutes my claim. Malone was a class of 2014 signee and Williams committed in September 2013, even before Malone's commitment. We fought tooth and nail to keep him in the 2015 class and thankfully we did. Neither are relevant to the topic, which is that poor usage of the WR position now prevents us from signing elite WRs.

Like all things in life, this is subject to change. Dobbs comes out firing in 2016 (as we hope he will) and proves that he can throw downfield and the higher rated WRs will come. Since this thread is started before the season, I am basing it off of what information we have to go with. I started the thread with the facts that are WR stats in 2015. I then drew my hypothesis on why WR recruiting has struggled since late last year into this year. I use the definition of elite as 5 star or top 50 based on the composite because that is the most objective means I know to use. What should I use? Bigtwit's opinion that Callaway is elite? Does bigtwit's opinion have any significance with HS football players carrying offers from UT? Does your opinion? If not, why should I use such subjective opinions.

Since you're the apparent voice of reason why don't you tell me the logical conclusion to weak WR numbers since the CBJ era started (not a single UT WR has placed in the top 100 for receiving yardage from 2013-2015) and a noticeable downward trend of recruiting the position. Feel free to use facts if you can.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top