UNC and Duke Basketball, 2015-16

[volprof]

You make it damn near impossible to feel sorry for you guys when you actually believe #5. I've said it before, I'll say it again, nobody, I mean nobody plays the victim better than UNC. The "everybody else does it" defense is UNC's favorite, while at same time mocking SEC schools for being substandard, and yet who gets caught? The guys who think they're the smartest in the room and contend to always have the moral high ground.

Oh, please. Just read all the posts from this forum. I imagine they were repeated all throughout America.

I could tell some fascinating stories about our beloved UT's academics and athletics, but I keep my mouth shut about that.

What's the big deal anyhow? Don't you love having a villain? Duke plays an excellent villain roll, and America loves and hates them for that. UNC played the villain role for many Americans this season.

 

[NashVol11]

Oh, please. Just read all the posts from this forum. I imagine they were repeated all throughout America.

I could tell some fascinating stories about our beloved UT's academics and athletics, but I keep my mouth shut about that.

What's the big deal anyhow? Don't you love having a villain? Duke plays an excellent villain roll, and America loves and hates them for that. UNC played the villain role for many Americans this season.

UNC was nobody's villain. People hate Duke and people hate Kentucky. There's no segment of America that despises Marcus Paige like he's Grayson Allen.

 

[NashVol11]

I hope he stays, but I'm not sure of his desire to play in the NBA. If that's his dream, he'll likely go, if not, he probably stays and tries to win another championship next year bc I honestly don't see another team as good as Duke next year, even with UK's class - they don't have the talent and experience coming back. I do think he does have the potential to be an All-American next year and still avg 20 bc it will be his team, but if he leaves I agree with you, Duke will still be okay. Luke will step into his role and even though I think Grayson is great, I think Luke is more skilled and can be even better than Grayson bc his game is already more refined and he's a more savvy player than Grayson is, which helps him around the rim.

I just think he's accomplished basically everything that he can. He could follow his heart and come back, but logic usually wins out, and the risk of not being in the first round far outweighs the reward of MAYBE jumping like 10 spots in the draft.

 

[NashVol11]

To me, it's not unlike Jabari's decision--weighing coming back to take fewer shots on a great team--except that Grayson already has a championship, and if he tears his ACL like Jabari did, his guaranteed contract is gone because he's a fringe first-rounder. That's why I'd leave. We'll see though

 

[kid50]

To me, it's not unlike Jabari's decision--weighing coming back to take fewer shots on a great team--except that Grayson already has a championship, and if he tears his ACL like Jabari did, his guaranteed contract is gone because he's a fringe first-rounder. That's why I'd leave. We'll see though

Yeah, I see that point too. But his draft stock keeps falling and at this point, he's probably a second rounder. I believe he started out the season 23-25 on Chad Ford's Big Board and his most recent Board today had Grayson at 30. It definitely makes sense for him to go, I'm not arguing with you there. I'm just not sure if Grayson was ever the type of guy that had dreams of playing in the NBA. Sure, I bet he always wanted too, but he could be one of those players who just always dreamed to play for Duke. Who knows? I think the thing for him is just where his heart is and what his dreams were - to be an all-time great Dukie or to play in the NBA? The difference between him and Jabari though is that Jabari was a top-5 pick and wanted to play in the NBA - Grayson will be 25-40 range.

 

[LittleCat]

To me, it's not unlike Jabari's decision--weighing coming back to take fewer shots on a great team--except that Grayson already has a championship, and if he tears his ACL like Jabari did, his guaranteed contract is gone because he's a fringe first-rounder. That's why I'd leave. We'll see though

Jabari was a way higher prospect. Grayson can certainly go and take his chances, but if he comes back, like Kid50 said, there is room to improve and be a leader of the team.

 

[kid50]

Oh, please. Just read all the posts from this forum. I imagine they were repeated all throughout America.

I could tell some fascinating stories about our beloved UT's academics and athletics, but I keep my mouth shut about that.

What's the big deal anyhow? Don't you love having a villain? Duke plays an excellent villain roll, and America loves and hates them for that. UNC played the villain role for many Americans this season.

Dude, UNC was no one's villain and I mean no one. Other than Duke fans no one cared if you won or lost that game last night. They just wanted a good game. UNC isn't Duke or UK, whenever those two teams play for a championship everyone but their fans want them to lose. UNC is like Kansas, no one hates them and they'll never be a villain. They're a top-5 program that no one hates or villifies other than their bitter rivals.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

Oh, please. Just read all the posts from this forum. I imagine they were repeated all throughout America.

I could tell some fascinating stories about our beloved UT's academics and athletics, but I keep my mouth shut about that.

What's the big deal anyhow? Don't you love having a villain? Duke plays an excellent villain roll, and America loves and hates them for that. UNC played the villain role for many Americans this season.

Nobody cared if you lost last night unless they were fans of Duke, State, UK, Nova and maybe Kansas. UNC just isn't that polarizing

 

[NashVol11]

Jabari was a way higher prospect. Grayson can certainly go and take his chances, but if he comes back, like Kid50 said, there is room to improve and be a leader of the team.

I'm not saying they're equal prospects, I'm saying they're facing similar decisions. It's not about where you're drafted as much as it's about whether your draft stock is as high as it will go. I don't think Grayson Allen would be a lottery pick no matter how long he stayed; it would basically be a bet on himself becoming Buddy Hield, which is a pretty tough bar to reach.

 

[LittleCat]

I'm not saying they're equal prospects, I'm saying they're facing similar decisions. It's not about where you're drafted as much as it's about whether your draft stock is as high as it will go. I don't think Grayson Allen would be a lottery pick no matter how long he stayed; it would basically be a bet on himself becoming Buddy Hield, which is a pretty tough bar to reach.

Jabari was top 5, and had much more to lose. Being a 1st rounder at least guarantees you some money which Allen may/may not care about. Allen isn't going to turn into a top 10 pick, but he at least solidify 1st round status, be a leader for Duke, and probably not fall at all. If he's going to be in the 2nd, then just stay and who cares if you fall from 31 to 40 or whatever where you fight to stay on the roster.

 

[NashVol11]

Jabari was top 5, and had much more to lose. Being a 1st rounder at least guarantees you some money which Allen may/may not care about. Allen isn't going to turn into a top 10 pick, but he at least solidify 1st round status, be a leader for Duke, and probably not fall at all. If he's going to be in the 2nd, then just stay and who cares if you fall from 31 to 40 or whatever where you fight to stay on the roster.

I'd argue that you have much more to lose at #25 than you do in the top 5. Top 5, you're getting a guaranteed contract no matter what.

He could easily fall. He'd be a year older, so he would have to be better than he was this year just to keep his draft stock where it is. If he gets hurt or gets lost in the shuffle with Giles and Tatum, his stock will definitely drop. It may drop regardless because the draft is stronger. And either way, he's giving up another year of the ~10 he has left and not getting paid for it.

If he's a second round pick now, after being an All-American and the face of the program, why is he going to come back and suddenly be a solid first-rounder as an older player, with a smaller role, in a stronger draft?

If he bases it purely on logic, which most do, he'll leave. But some don't look at it like that, and really love being in college or whatever. I'd say he's being irresponsible if he doesn't at least declare without hiring an agent though

 

[kid50]

I'd argue that you have much more to lose at #25 than you do in the top 5. Top 5, you're getting a guaranteed contract no matter what.

He could easily fall. He'd be a year older, so he would have to be better than he was this year just to keep his draft stock where it is. If he gets hurt or gets lost in the shuffle with Giles and Tatum, his stock will definitely drop. It may drop regardless because the draft is stronger. And either way, he's giving up another year of the ~10 he has left and not getting paid for it.

If he's a second round pick now, after being an All-American and the face of the program, why is he going to come back and suddenly be a solid first-rounder as an older player, with a smaller role, in a stronger draft?

If he bases it purely on logic, which most do, he'll leave. But some don't look at it like that, and really love being in college or whatever. I'd say he's being irresponsible if he doesn't at least declare without hiring an agent though

I don't disagree with you on anything you've said. To me, he really can't lose no matter what decision he makes. There's no wrong decision for him really. As a matter of fact, I'd say you're spot on and the only wrong decision he could be possibly make would be to come back. I, personally, think he would benefit more from coming back, but he should definitely put his name in without hiring an agent. If he goes to the draft, it's not a wrong decision. If he comes back, it's also not a wrong decision. He should probably test the waters without an agent and see what's out there for him. He's in a good spot where he can't really go wrong with his decision. One of the big things he needs to do is repair his reputation and I'm really not sure how he can best do that - in college or the NBA.

 

[NashVol11]

I don't disagree with you on anything you've said. To me, he really can't lose no matter what decision he makes. There's no wrong decision for him really. As a matter of fact, I'd say you're spot on and the only wrong decision he could be possibly make would be to come back. I, personally, think he would benefit more from coming back, but he should definitely put his name in without hiring an agent. If he goes to the draft, it's not a wrong decision. If he comes back, it's also not a wrong decision. He should probably test the waters without an agent and see what's out there for him. He's in a good spot where he can't really go wrong with his decision. One of the big things he needs to do is repair his reputation and I'm really not sure how he can best do that - in college or the NBA.

Yeah, he'll do what's best for him. Even if it's not what I would do, if the Duke experience is really important to him, I'm happy for him. I hope he doesn't end up like Marcus Paige in terms of draft stock, but he's a lot more athletic, so I think he'll be alright.

 

[LittleCat]

. There's no wrong decision for him really. As a matter of fact, I'd say you're spot on and the only wrong decision he could be possibly make would be to come back.

lol?

 

[NashVol11]

What do you guys think about Carolina next year? Lineup should be something like Berry/Jackson/Pinson/Hicks/Meeks, right? I've been expecting Jackson to take a big step forward at some point, so I guess next season is when I think it happens.

 

[LittleCat]

What do you guys think about Carolina next year? Lineup should be something like Berry/Jackson/Pinson/Hicks/Meeks, right? I've been expecting Jackson to take a big step forward at some point, so I guess next season is when I think it happens.

Doesn't matter, should be banned from the tourney :rock:

 

[kid50]

lol?

Haha I get what you're saying. The only wrong decision would be for him to come back first and not test the waters at all. He should declare for the draft but not hire an agent so he can ultimately make the "right" decision to come back.

 

[LittleCat]

Haha I get what you're saying. The only wrong decision would be for him to come back first and not test the waters at all. He should declare for the draft but not hire an agent so he can ultimately make the "right" decision to come back.

If he feels he is 1st round stuff, then go. If he isn't, come back and try to win a title. Idk where is mind is maybe making guesses isn't the best thing to do on my part

 

[volfanhill]

Oh, please. Just read all the posts from this forum. I imagine they were repeated all throughout America.

I could tell some fascinating stories about our beloved UT's academics and athletics, but I keep my mouth shut about that.

What's the big deal anyhow? Don't you love having a villain? Duke plays an excellent villain roll, and America loves and hates them for that. UNC played the villain role for many Americans this season.

I agree that shady stuff happens everywhere. The problem, in this particular situation, is Carolina acted as if they were the last bastion of doing things the clean way. Don't hear anybody saying lets do it the Carolina way anymore. It's similar to Lance Armstrong. If he just owned his bs from day one, it would have been a story, but nobody would vilify him like they do now. You all snubbed your nose at every other school all the while commiting the largest sports related academic scandal in history. Now you want to play victim.

 

[RDU VOL#14]

Yeah, he'll do what's best for him. Even if it's not what I would do, if the Duke experience is really important to him, I'm happy for him. I hope he doesn't end up like Marcus Paige in terms of draft stock, but he's a lot more athletic, so I think he'll be alright.

Everything that I've heard is that he's going to test the waters without hiring an agent and see where the chips fall. The Duke experience &academics are important to he and his family and he is on pace to graduate next year so he is leaning towards coming back to Duke according to my "people".

 

[volprof]

I agree that shady stuff happens everywhere. The problem, in this particular situation, is Carolina acted as if they were the last bastion of doing things the clean way. Don't hear anybody saying lets do it the Carolina way anymore. It's similar to Lance Armstrong. If he just owned his bs from day one, it would have been a story, but nobody would vilify him like they do now. You all snubbed your nose at every other school all the while commiting the largest sports related academic scandal in history. Now you want to play victim.

Not a victim. I've never claimed we're a victim. There's a difference between being a victim and a villain. The only excuse I have made is that things like this occur at other places and various forms of cheating (whether it be hookers, paying players, or having grades manipulated short of "paper classes") occur in some form practically everywhere, which is true.

If that's considered "playing victim," then so be it. I can't speak for other Tar Heel fans though.

 

[volprof]

UNC was nobody's villain. People hate Duke and people hate Kentucky. There's no segment of America that despises Marcus Paige like he's Grayson Allen.

People hate Grayson Allen because he's a dirty sneak and we all just hope he doesn't end a player's career someday with one of his shenanigans that K clearly never attempts to stop. Any hate Allen receives is well-deserved. For Duke fans, he's your jerk though, so I know what that's like. Same reason why UT fans put up with Kiffin at the time.

People like Marcus Paige, because he's a good kid. There's no reason to hate Marcus Paige.

But, please don't misinterpret me. We need our Grayson Allens, just as much as we need our Marcus Paiges. Both are just as important, because each contributes to the narrative.

I agree with you in that no one hated UNC like Duke or Kentucky before the scandal in general and this season in particular. This season, we were very successful, so it served a lot of people's moral narratives to pull against "UNC-Cheat," as the poets call it.

I don't know what's so difficult to accept about this. If other Tar Heel fans in the past have played the "victim," whatever that means, then that's their prerogative. I'm simply saying we were the villain this year, although I would say that we probably weren't hated as much as some Duke or Kentucky teams of the past.

 

[volprof]

Dude, UNC was no one's villain and I mean no one. Other than Duke fans no one cared if you won or lost that game last night. They just wanted a good game. UNC isn't Duke or UK, whenever those two teams play for a championship everyone but their fans want them to lose. UNC is like Kansas, no one hates them and they'll never be a villain. They're a top-5 program that no one hates or villifies other than their bitter rivals.

Nobody cared if you lost last night unless they were fans of Duke, State, UK, Nova and maybe Kansas. UNC just isn't that polarizing

I guess the dozens of posts stating otherwise in this forum last night were just aberrations.

I imagine the dozens of posts stating unabashed support are just a little delayed and are coming in soon, although, I'd like these folks to know that the title game is already over.

Oh, you Duke fans! Always wanting to hog the spotlight! UNC can be a villain too, dammit'! You haven't cornered the market on villainry, at least not yet.

 

[LittleCat]

Not a victim. I've never claimed we're a victim. There's a difference between being a victim and a villain. The only excuse I have made is that things like this occur at other places and various forms of cheating (whether it be hookers, paying players, or having grades manipulated short of "paper classes") occur in some form practically everywhere, which is true.

If that's considered "playing victim," then so be it. I can't speak for other Tar Heel fans though.

On the subject of hookers...The irony of Louisville actually owning up in a way (whoever thought that would happen???) and punishing themselves while UNC fights trying to erase the issue and win the title. At least there was some small bit of karma and UNC lost.

Yes, there is cheating in some form at every school. But I doubt many had cheating on this scale, so organized, involving all these different sports (and even some non-athletes), for 20 years. The fact UNC might actually walk away unpunished athletically is downright embarrassing.

 

[volprof]

On the subject of hookers...The irony of Louisville actually owning up in a way (whoever thought that would happen???) and punishing themselves while UNC fights trying to erase the issue and win the title. At least there was some small bit of karma and UNC lost.

Yes, there is cheating in some form at every school. But I doubt many had cheating on this scale, so organized, involving all these different sports (and even some non-athletes), for 20 years. The fact UNC might actually walk away unpunished athletically is downright embarrassing.

Yes, it is impressive, although it largely sounds more like an institutional problem than an "athletics" one.

The thing that kills me though is that they're thousands of colleges in this country, and UNC is the only one...yet. Just give it time. May end up being akin to the Title 9/rape monsoon that has been (and will continue to be) unleashed. Colleges have been gaming people and students for years. Now that tuition and other costs are so high and now that administrators rig the system to reward themselves so much for so little, the ones who get left out of the prize for one reason or another aren't as willing to keep hushed anymore. What we've seen thus far is is only the tip of the iceberg.