War in Ukraine

[LouderVol]

This is true but the Russians have never been an overly bright people with a yearning for liberty.

I think it's a cultural thing that made communism so popular there.

They don't really care how much they suffer, as long as someone else has it worse.

Ukraine was starting to peak out from under the old Russia reality and that wasn't allowable.

 

[apevol]

They still worked with us fairly well until the mid 2000s.

Russia doesn't hate the USA, they just hate us being in the way of recovering their Empire. Putin clearly wants to make Russia into a World Power again. That is his motivation. Frankly, most of us would be doing the same in his shoes. Issue with Russia is their internal corruption more than owning Ukraine. Owning Ukraine would help though as Ukraine is, by far, the most valuable region that Russia lost in 1991.

Putins russia views itself as a peer to the US and looks upon Western Europe with disdain. They view all of Europe as their sphere and want us to piss off out of Europe altogether

 

[LSU-SIU]

No

If I could find a country that just has a little common sense, I would think its a miracle. I mostly find the people that often talk about other countries, have rarely been anywhere.

 

[Sudden Impact]

Not 100% accurate. We got along with Russia pretty well from 1991-2006. In fact, Bush and Putin were big pals in Putin's first term and they were considered an ally in the War on Terror. They even shared intel and allowed us to use their bases for a short spell. It all changed when Russia started bullying Georgia.

People must have forgotten this quote from W Bush:

“I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy,” Bush said. “I was able to get a sense of his soul.”

Putin also made comments indicating that his views on the United States have changed over time and he originally wanted to work with the USA.

Not a 100% accurate statement as well. So you think that those two got along, I don't think so Tim.

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. People change as well. Your right, there probably is less cloak and dagger, but the methods changed as well are less open.

Give a child a loaded weapon with a trigger finger and wait for the results. Russia is not to be trusted and what we don't see in public is completely different behind closed doors.

 

[hog88]

I think it's a cultural thing that made communism so popular there.

They don't really care how much they suffer, as long as someone else has it worse.

Ukraine was starting to peak out from under the old Russia reality and that wasn't allowable.

Between the revolution and Stalin the best and brightest Russia had were snuffed out, the Russian gene pool suffered.

 

[W.TN.Orange Blood]

 

[apevol]

hey look the americans are interfering in Ukrainian politics!

 

[volbound1700]

My opinion just off of videos is they don't hate American per se, what your government and neocons have been doing... that is a different story. I posted a video of a guy the other day that was Russian but has family in the Ukraine talk about it. He's like we root out all the chaos being inflicted from underneath there will be problems.

A lot of nations hate the USA because we are in their way from conquering some neighbor.

China only fights with us over Taiwan. Iran over more hegemony in the Middle East and somewhat for our failure in Afghanistan as the Taliban is now threatening Iran. Russia clearly wants to take back some of its lost lands.

A lot of nations don't like the status quo borders.

 

[LSU-SIU]

A lot of nations hate the USA because we are in their way from conquering some neighbor.

China only fights with us over Taiwan. Iran over more hegemony in the Middle East and somewhat for our failure in Afghanistan as the Taliban is now threatening Iran. Russia clearly wants to take back some of its lost lands.

A lot of nations don't like the status quo borders.

I kind of agree on some of this. I would say maybe we just need to listen to the Russians a little, they had real concerns for the Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine and rightfully so, imo. Nobody really wants the Western Ukraine (edit from Eastern), which is really the problem.

 

[volbound1700]

Ukraine is a status symbol for Russia/Putin now. They aren't gaining anything they didn't already have with this war. Except to say we took it in combat look at how strong we are.

Putin underestimated Ukrainian resistance, that is clear. However, he is slowly winning this war. I think they would rather keep fighting than admit defeat. Ukraine will have to give up some land or give something symbolic to Russia to end the war.

I don't think Trump is a fanboy of Putin like everyone on the left makes him out to be but it is clear that Putin tends to be more willing to work with Trump than other administrations in the past.

 

[lawgator1]

This is true but the Russians have never been an overly bright people with a yearning for liberty.

They are used to what they are used to.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Putin underestimated Ukrainian resistance, that is clear. However, he is slowly winning this war. I think they would rather keep fighting than admit defeat. Ukraine will have to give up some land or give something symbolic to Russia to end the war.

I don't think Trump is a fanboy of Putin like everyone on the left makes him out to be but it is clear that Putin tends to be more willing to work with Trump than other administrations in the past.

The real issue should be mission creep by China, not really the Russians imo. Russia just wants to do their thing, Putin is like we have plenty of land and he is right.

 

[Sudden Impact]

I think it's a bit of an overreaction to say the DOD ending offensive cyber activities against Russia is a sign of what's to come. It could be nothing more than a gesture of good will to get Putin to the negotiating table, it could mean nothing since we don't know what offensive cyber activities the DOD was conducting but I don't read anything negative into it. Remember, we still have the CIA, NSA and goodness knows what other agencies that don't fall under the DOD to conduct offensive cyber activities.

I don't know is it an overreaction? Can't say that it is or is not. Putin at the negotiating table only means he is going to get what he wants. Cyber Activities includes more than it should but you by not reading anything into it is your first mistake. We still have the CIA, NSA and other agencies during a changeover are at their weakest points.
Cyberspace is where a future war will be fought or began. Without monitoring we will be guessing at where the threat is coming from.

 

[volbound1700]

Not a 100% accurate statement as well. So you think that those to got along, I don't think so Tim.
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. People change as well. Your right, there probably is less cloak and dagger, but the methods changed as well are less open.
Give a child a loaded weapon with a trigger finger and wait for the results. Russia is not to be trusted and what we don't see in public is completely different behind closed doors.

We were not cold war enemies during that period. In fact, under Yeltsin, we were getting close to being friends and Russia was open for business. The issue was that the average Russian suffered during that time. When Putin took over, the economy turned around in Russia which caused him to have a strong following. He is seen as a strong leader (something Yeltsin was not seen as) and the Russians clearly got a bad taste of Western Democracy through that endeavor.

 

[apevol]

Between the revolution and Stalin the best and brightest Russia had were snuffed out, the Russian gene pool suffered.

the soviets still accomplished quite a bit, even after Stalin. The brain drain since the 90s has finished them off

 

[volbound1700]

The real issue should be mission creep by China, not really the Russians imo. Russia just wants to do their thing, Putin is like we have plenty of land and he is right.

The Russia has a lot of land argument is kind of a false narrative. Something like 60% of their land is covered in Permafrost.

Ukraine has plenty of farm land, mineral resources, etc. It was often a target in wars because it is considered the richest part of the Russian Empire. It was called the bread basket of Russia for a reason. Hitler definitely targeted the region heavily because of its wealth.

If you look at the 14 states that left Russia, the most valuable is by far Ukraine. Belarus is probably #2 but they are already under the thumb of Russia.

 

[apevol]

We were not cold war enemies during that period. In fact, under Yeltsin, we were getting close to being friends and Russia was open for business. The issue was that the average Russian suffered during that time. When Putin took over, the economy turned around in Russia which caused him to have a strong following. He is seen as a strong leader (something Yeltsin was not seen as) and the Russians clearly got a bad taste of Western Democracy through that endeavor.

the minute russians started to think twice about Putin we sanctioned the hell out of them and shut down any chance for a partnership with Russia without Putin

 

[hog88]

They are used to what they are used to.

Yep, much like liberals.

 

[LSU-SIU]

If you look at the 14 states that left Russia, the most valuable is by far Ukraine. Belarus is probably #2 but they are already under the thumb of Russia.

Western Ukraine ain't worth ****, I wouldn't pay $100 for that stupid mineral resource deal.

Russia is using much of the colder area which is why they are building their ice shipping route. Russia is almost twice the size of the U.S. with like 1/3rd the population, they have plenty of land and resources. Which is why the neocons had them targeted for termination.

 

[hog88]

I don't know is it an overreaction? Can't say that it is or is not. Putin at the negotiating table only means he is going to get what he wants. Cyber Activities includes more than it should but you by not reading anything into it is your first mistake. We still have the CIA, NSA and other agencies during a changeover are at their weakest points.
Cyberspace is where a future war will be fought or began. Without monitoring we will be guessing at where the threat is coming from.

Ok

 

[volbound1700]

the minute russians started to think twice about Putin we sanctioned the hell out of them and shut down any chance for a partnership with Russia without Putin

In many ways, this is kind of a Russian/Slavic Civil War. Ukrainians are a version of Russians, in fact, they can arguably be considered the original Russians and Kiev as the heartland of Russia.

Kievan Rus was the first real "Russian" civilization in Medieval Europe. The reason Moscow became the center was the Mongols. The Mongols devastated Kievan Rus and the Southern Russian states which had the more favorable land while they seemed to be content to tax the northern regions of Russia like Novgorod, Perm, Muscovy, Tver, etc.

Poland-Lithuania also ended up taking large swathes of what we know as Russia ruling Kiev, Smolensk, Minsk, and Ryazan at their height. They even conquered and Ruled Moscow for a time.

It was the rise of Muscovy that setup modern Russia and the Russian state is a descendant of this version of Russia. The Czars took back Novgorod, Ukraine, Smolensk, Ryazan, Kazan, and all the lands from Tartars, Poland-Lithuania, Sweden, etc. However, Ukrainians, especially in the Soviet era, have always been treated like second-class citizens by Russians. Also, a lot of Western Ukraine wasn't even a part of Russia until after 1945. It was original a part of Austria-Hungary and then Poland from 1921-1945. So cities like Lviv can hardly be considered Russian anymore due to outside influence.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Putin-Trump Summit Being Expedited In Wake Of Zelensky White House Row | ZeroHedge

Nothing has been announced in public. But, privately, there’s talk of the Trump-Putin summit, always on the cards, now being fast-tracked," the report continues.

 

[volbound1700]

Western Ukraine ain't worth ****, I wouldn't pay $100 for that stupid mineral resource deal.

Russia is using much of the colder area which is why they are building their ice shipping route. Russia is almost twice the size of the U.S. with like 1/3rd the population, they have plenty of land and resources. Which is why the neocons had them targeted for termination.

Based on this statement, you don't know history. Western Ukraine was very valuable to many nations. Austria ruled it up until 1918 and it was a valuable place for mining, farming, and recruitment of soldiers. It was one of the more valuable regions of the Austrian Empire. There was also a reason Stalin land grabbed it from Poland and added it to Ukraine.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Based on this statement, you don't know history. Western Ukraine was very valuable to many nations. Austria ruled it up until 1918 and it was a valuable place for mining, farming, and recruitment of soldiers. It was one of the more valuable regions of the Austrian Empire.

Nobody gives a **** about the western ukraine, which is why BlackRock bailed early on after they figured out Eastern Ukraine was lost for good... which meant Russia was off the table. Virtually every place has mining, farming and recruitment of soldiers.

The prize was always Russia, this would give time to Europe because they are on a path to collapse.

 

[apevol]

In many ways, this is kind of a Russian/Slavic Civil War. Ukrainians are a version of Russians, in fact, they can arguably be considered the original Russians and Kiev as the heartland of Russia.

Kievan Rus was the first real "Russian" civilization in Medieval Europe. The reason Moscow became the center was the Mongols. The Mongols devastated Kievan Rus and the Southern Russian states which had the more favorable land while they seemed to be content to tax the northern regions of Russia like Novgorod, Perm, Muscovy, Tver, etc.

Poland-Lithuania also ended up taking large swathes of what we know as Russia ruling Kiev, Smolensk, Minsk, and Ryazan at their height. They even conquered and Ruled Moscow for a time.

It was the rise of Muscovy that setup modern Russia and the Russian state is a descendant of this version of Russia. The Czars took back Novgorod, Ukraine, Smolensk, Ryazan, Kazan, and all the lands from Tartars, Poland-Lithuania, Sweden, etc. However, Ukrainians, especially in the Soviet era, have always been treated like second-class citizens by Russians. Also, a lot of Western Ukraine wasn't even a part of Russia until after 1945. It was original a part of Austria-Hungary and then Poland from 1921-1945. So cities like Lviv can hardly be considered Russian anymore due to outside influence.

when this kicked off, i said it was going to be a slavic bloodbath that we want nothing to do with.

Russians talk out both sides of their face concerning Ukrainians, and have for a long time. Even russians opposed to the war are bigoted against ukrainians.

Ukrainians either believe they are russian, or they hate Russians with a passion.

During Russias war on Georgia, Putin lied and claimed there were no such ethnic issues in Ukraine and they had no plans on taking crimea. There were always issues there and he intentionally inflamed them and used it as a reason to act.

We played into it every step of the way despite it being obvious what Putin intended.

All we accomplished was getting the old school nationalists to believe now was their time to gain real independence, and thats why Putin was calling us nazis. Because those people's grandfather's sided with nazis.

dont get involved with the former parts of the soviet Union unless you're ready to go to war.

Now we'll see what turkey does in central asia